Behringer is trash

[paulster]

If you are stating that SMD is bad, I would suggest that you are confused about the real issues or you are brainwashed. SMD is better or every bit as good in almost all but very high voltage applications. Lower stray/parasitic capacitance and inductance make for a more robust, reliable and manufacturable design. Does SMD allow for a higher density of components in a given space? Yes. Is that a bad thing from a performance POV? No. Does it make it harder to repair? Yes. Learn to deal with it. All this stuff can be repaired. There is no magic to working on SMD loaded PCBs. It just takes some common sense. knowledge, and experience.

+1.

I like to use eyelet boards, through-plated PCBs for leaded components and SMD PCBs. It just depends on the particular application.

SMDs fine to work on if you've got the appropriate tools, in exactly the same way that you wouldn't work on a turret board with a blowtorch; you'd get the right tool for that too.

[Andy Le Blanc]

You make good points of course, but why is behringer excluded on nearly
every tech rider I've seen. And why should a simple jack repair tie up a piece
of back line in the repair shop, not to mention shipping. Its ridiculous.

Even a lowly old peavey monitor board sounds better.
I've run live FOH for over a hundred dates last year, the only thing good use
for a behringer is the light show when you cook one.

If a pro venue see's you've got any behringer product in your side rack,
there's good chance you'll lose the gig.

You'll be hard pressed to run a behringer console +3/- 5db from unity on a channel without getting distortion,
and forget about running the output over -10db.

When it comes from China the price point reflects component sourcing.
It doesn't matter whether its SMD or drywall. We get what we are perceived to deserve.

It is about application, you can do a lot with SMD, but, when comes to a
guitar amp, the features don't justify sounding bad, or the waste of time trying to fix it.

[vibratoking]

And why should a simple jack repair tie up a piece
of back line in the repair shop, not to mention shipping. Its ridiculous.

I'd have to see it to understand, but I would guess it has something to do with ability of the repair shop

Even a lowly old peavey monitor board sounds better.
I've run live FOH for over a hundred dates last year, the only thing good use for a behringer is the light show when you cook one.

You'll be hard pressed to run a behringer console +3/- 5db from unity on a channel without getting distortion,
and forget about running the output over -10db.

I never took the leap for a Behringer mixer of any sort. The task of reverse engineering a mixer just seemed beyond what I felt Behringer was capable of. On some points we agree. I have used some that were part of a club installation and have run across a few dead channels. The sound quality was neither exceptionally bad nor good. I have had to tear apart Mackie boards to fix the dreaded ribbon cables and Allen and Heath boards for similar reasons. Pretty cheap construction in my opinion.

It is about application, you can do a lot with SMD, but, when comes to a guitar amp, the features don't justify sounding bad, or the waste of time trying to fix it

Not sure what you mean by the features. I have used SMD components to mod amps for DC heaters for instance. Off the top of my head, that's a good example of an SMD application for a guitar amp.

I own some Behringer GEQs and comps, they are decent ( nothing to brag about) and I have definitely gotten my $$$ worth.

[Bear]

SMD isn't itself bad. Bad use of SMD is bad. Same with through-hole PCB -- some places where it's unproblematic with good layout, but bad layout or stupid things like mounting tube sockets on board with low rated resistors and high voltage and current.

The fundamental questions are whether it's built to last and whether it's built to sound good. Sometimes poorly built, hastily designed, cheap gear gets lucky on the second measure. For as long as it lasts or until it breaks to be not worth fixing.

Disposable gear just isn't a good value in the end. Doesn't hold value and you just keep working through steps of disposable gear. Yeah, if you absolutely need the functionality now, I suppose, but most musicians don't.

[Structo]

One man's garbage is another ...........

[Ears]

Can anyone recommend any on line information on SMD repair/build techniques for someone that's completely new to working on them?

[Andy Le Blanc]

resistance soldering tweezers, micro digital rework station, multi function rework systems. systems are $ 400 to $ 850 US dollars.
No one in my region can afford the bench fee to make it worth while.
You have to etch pcbs too.

[selloutrr]

radio shack sells or used to sell a book on solid state electronics.. a beginners how to book it talks about basic technique and getting started.

local library is a great source for books.

[Ears]

Thanks guys, Selloutrr I'm familiar with s-state and through-hole pcb design etc but my experience is largely twenty five years obsolete, I am looking for specifics on practical SMD techniques, especially repair. I had (wrongly?) assumed you needed wave-flow solder gear for fabrication etc. Most beginner electronic stuff is not concerned with that aspect or have times changed even more and I'm a greater fossil than I thought?

[jelle]

Andy,


I agree with you. IMHO, people should not buy products that are produced with this mindset.

If you have 20 minutes:

http://www.storyofstuff.com/

Have fun!

Jelle

[paulster]

I don't see what the big problem is. If you want to do basic work on turret boards you'll start with a soldering iron.

If you want to do it professionally you'll get a decent soldering station and a range of bits so you have the correct tools for the job at hand.

If you want to work with SMD you get the right tools for that job as well and learn the proper techniques.

I think it's also short-sighted to say that SMD must sound bad. Take a listen to the new range of pedals from John Suhr that he's deliberately chosen to go SMD on for sound quality and reliability.

Here's a good example of some basic SMD techniques:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NN7UGWYmBY

[Ears]

Here's a good example of some basic SMD techniques:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NN7UGWYmBY

Thanks Paulster,
Just what I wanted.
"soddering", haw haw, got to love the accent.

[Andy Le Blanc]

Your gonna sell me a product made from a $2 chip surrounded by $0.004 components
that I can't fix for $250 because of the name on the box...... great.....

[Aurora]

Of course Behringer products can be fixed! And quite a lot of them are actually quite good... although maybe not totally built for the road.....
One also has to remember that SMD in general is designed for automatic production and miniataurizition.
How many small shops equipped to do SMD fixes is another story, but that's not Behringers fault!
If it's worthwhile moneywise, is also another story! Around here you pay somewhere around 100$ pr hour at a registered workshop - bear in mind that it is not just the repairman's wages that have to be paid - there's a LOT of other expenses that have to be paid by the same hours rate. Over here in my corner, I also have a law enforced 3-5 yrs warranty...
Dump it - and buy a new one , - that's just market economy i practice! Just look at PC's - how many board level repairs are done this days.....????

There's absolutely nothing wrong about SMD , - not even for audio. Some will even claim that SMDs are better , because of shorter signal paths.. no component leads, see...??
I've been in SMD prototyping for about 10 years, now. It's no big deal , but a minimum of specialized tools are required. Reflow ovens are nice, but only nessesseary in some special cases. With some practice, it's possible to solder 50 mil pin pitch by hand. Looking at production eqpt. is of course another story...... Then one has to remember this is SS.....
There's no point in combining tubes and SMD, although it's been done.... SMD is usually just not "power inclined".....

[Structo]

I watched that video.
Man, you have to have very steady hands to do that kind of work.
I'm afraid my hand shakes a little too much to hold and solder a component the size of a grain of rice.