Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

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talbany
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Re: Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

Post by talbany »

did you read the affidavit all the way through? it pretty clearly says that given the significance of the problems found w/ the gibson imports, that the gov is seeking permission to search gibson's properties for evidence. one of the reasons the affidavit says the gov is so suspicious is because the kind of mistakes they found w/ the shipments don't appear to be mistakes, but rather look intentional. for example, the affidavit metnions a shipment of wood that would have otherwise been illegal to export were falsely describe and falsely coded to look like a shipment of wood that could be legally exported.

still sound to me like the doj is doing its job. also, the doj has said that it's not interested in yours or anyone elses guitars. they're only interested in corps that are intentionally breaking the law. or at least that's my reading of it. the illegal logging business has more to do w/ the 2009 raid, i think. and that wood has to do w/ madagascar, not india.
1) The issue isn’t at all about “sawed Indian ebony logs with paperwork identified as finger boards”. It’s about fingerboard blanks, and whether or not they can be considered a product involving enough native labor to satisfy the export laws of India. It’s also about a wrong (but closely related) tariff code being entered on only SOME of the paperwork.

2) What’s an acceptable product? As the agent himself pointed out in Gibson’s search warrant affidavit, there’s a distinction between a “fingerboard” (an unfretted wood blank of rough size) and a “fretboard” (which is slotted and contains fret wire). If so, then those are two different products, and as such it’s possible to have a fingerboard blank as distinguished from simply “sawn wood” – adding slots, wires, inlays, shaping and binding would make that blank into a related but different product. In the same way, we offer flat shell blanks, veneers, Abalam® sheets, and strips made to specifications according to what their intended use is: as materials which may or may not be remanufactured/incorporated into other types of finished products such as inlays, guitars, jewelry, furniture, fishing lures, and so on. Similarly, plywood is imported as a product unto itself without it needing to be in another and more final form such as furniture, boxes, or whatever.

To insist, as the U.S. agencies seem to be doing, that materials from India must be in their ultimate retail form is insane, especially in light of the Indian government not interpreting their own regs that way or insisting on such nonsense. Here lies much of the anger surrounding this controversy

What's confusing is that in the search warrant affidavit Agent Rayfield goes to some length in distinguishing an unslotted "fretboard" from a slotted and fretted "fingerboard" (Para. 13) as found on a finished instrument, and later (para. 22) distinguishes HS 9209.92.00 as "finished parts of musical instruments".

He also mentions (Para. 13) that "importers and exporters have sometimes referred to the sawn pieces of wood intended to be manufactured into fretboards as 'fingerboards' or 'fingerboard blanks'". But he contends that even though these may be informally referred to as "fingerboards" they're actually no more than "sawn wood" and being over 6mm in thickness are "sawn logs" (Para. 19 and 25) and thus a prohibited HS 4407 item (Para. 12).

So at issue is whether or not "fingerboards" exceeding 6mm are "finished parts for musical instruments" as would be allowed under HS 9209.92.00. If not, the argument is that they're "sawn logs" and illegal. We all know including the DOJ they will ultimately be used for Musical instruments!!

Tony
Last edited by talbany on Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
qtone
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Rosewood

Post by qtone »

Anybody need any rosewood fingerboards ?
fresh out of ebony but lots of mahogany.

:lol:
talbany
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Re: Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

Post by talbany »

I just got an email from a fellow Luthier..Here it is


Here's a statement from Natalie Swango at Luthiers Mercantile International (LMII), who imported the wood involved in Gibson's latest raids:

“The exporter entered the correct code for his country's export according to Indian customs. I incorrectly listed Gibson as the consignee on the Lacey paperwork...the material was destined for them, but at this time LMI owns and is (was, ?) warehousing it. The broker made a mistake and listed the material as veneers, although all other paperwork correctly listed it as fingerboards (they have remedied this with an oops letter). The warehouse employee incorrectly informed the feds as to the ownership (although they bill me for the storage fees). The officers incorrectly came to the conclusion that we are smuggling wood.”

If this is true it will be interesting to see how the feds handle this one..


Tony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
CHIP
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Re: Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

Post by CHIP »

talbany wrote:I just got an email from a fellow Luthier..Here it is


Here's a statement from Natalie Swango at Luthiers Mercantile International (LMII), who imported the wood involved in Gibson's latest raids:

“The exporter entered the correct code for his country's export according to Indian customs. I incorrectly listed Gibson as the consignee on the Lacey paperwork...the material was destined for them, but at this time LMI owns and is (was, ?) warehousing it. The broker made a mistake and listed the material as veneers, although all other paperwork correctly listed it as fingerboards (they have remedied this with an oops letter). The warehouse employee incorrectly informed the feds as to the ownership (although they bill me for the storage fees). The officers incorrectly came to the conclusion that we are smuggling wood.”

If this is true it will be interesting to see how the feds handle this one..




Tony
it's obvious the feds jumped on this before investigating deep enough.
That alone smells like an ulterior motive.
Mark
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Re: Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

Post by Mark »

If Gibson are innocent they will get out of this. They certainly have the cash to fight this.

I must admit I am a little suspicious of the Gibson CEO, his actions are setting off a few alarm bells, he is a little too eager to cry foul, while I'd expect someone who is innocent to try and explain their innocence.

Mind you this isn't definitive stuff and I may have read him wrong. It just strikes me a little odd. :o
Yours Sincerely

Mark Abbott
CHIP
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Re: Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

Post by CHIP »

yeah screw em they got the cash.
thyx
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Re: Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

Post by thyx »

CHIP wrote:yeah screw em they got the cash.
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.



I don't care if they have the cash or not. That's not the important issue here; whether or not they can afford to prove themselves innocent or not. The issue here is Holden going way too far. Soros, who had a lot to do with Obama getting elected, has been lobbying to raid Gibson for a long time now...Soros, a flaming, rich liberal, seems not to like Gibson for some reason...perhaps because they donate to the GOP rather than the Dems (unlike most other guitar manufacturers, who use the same wood and sources Gibson does, BTW). Whatever the reason, this whole thing stinks to high heaven from the top on down. It has greater ramifications than it seems some folks are willing to come to terms with.
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NickC
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Re: Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

Post by NickC »

The New Freedom by Woodrow Wilson (Text format)

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/14811/pg14811.txt

Other formats available here (Kindle, HTML, etc):

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14811
Woodrow Wilson wrote: We used to think in the old-fashioned days when life was very simple that
all that government had to do was to put on a policeman's uniform, and
say, "Now don't anybody hurt anybody else." We used to say that the ideal
of government was for every man to be left alone and not interfered with,
except when he interfered with somebody else; and that the best government
was the government that did as little governing as possible. That was the
idea that obtained in Jefferson's time. But we are coming now to realize
that life is so complicated that we are not dealing with the old
conditions, and that the law has to step in and create new conditions
under which we may live, the conditions which will make it tolerable for
us to live.
Woodrow Wilson wrote: One of the most alarming phenomena of the time,--or rather it would be
alarming if the nation had not awakened to it and shown its determination
to control it,--one of the most significant signs of the new social era is
the degree to which government has become associated with business. I
speak, for the moment, of the control over the government exercised by Big
Business. Behind the whole subject, of course, is the truth that, in the
new order, government and business must be associated closely. But that
association is at present of a nature absolutely intolerable; the
precedence is wrong, the association is upside down. Our government has
been for the past few years under the control of heads of great allied
corporations with special interests. It has not controlled these interests
and assigned them a proper place in the whole system of business; it has
submitted itself to their control. As a result, there have grown up
vicious systems and schemes of governmental favoritism (the most obvious
being the extravagant tariff), far-reaching in effect upon the whole
fabric of life, touching to his injury every inhabitant of the land,
laying unfair and impossible handicaps upon competitors, imposing taxes in
every direction, stifling everywhere the free spirit of American
enterprise.
Woodrow Wilson wrote: All over the Union people are coming to feel that they have no control
over the course of affairs. I live in one of the greatest States in the
union, which was at one time in slavery. Until two years ago we had
witnessed with increasing concern the growth in New Jersey of a spirit of
almost cynical despair. Men said: "We vote; we are offered the platform we
want; we elect the men who stand on that platform, and we get absolutely
nothing." So they began to ask: "What is the use of voting? We know that
the machines of both parties are subsidized by the same persons, and
therefore it is useless to turn in either direction."
Woodrow Wilson wrote: Politics in America is in a case which sadly requires attention. The
system set up by our law and our usage doesn't work,--or at least it can't
be depended on; it is made to work only by a most unreasonable expenditure
of labor and pains. The government, which was designed for the people, has
got into the hands of bosses and their employers, the special interests.
An invisible empire has been set up above the forms of democracy.
Woodrow Wilson wrote: I believe, for one, that you cannot tear up ancient rootages and safely
plant the tree of liberty in soil which is not native to it. I believe
that the ancient traditions of a people are its ballast; you cannot make a
_tabula rasa_ upon which to write a political program. You cannot take a
new sheet of paper and determine what your life shall be to-morrow. You
must knit the new into the old. You cannot put a new patch on an old
garment without ruining it; it must be not a patch, but something woven
into the old fabric, of practically the same pattern, of the same texture
and intention. If I did not believe that to be progressive was to preserve
the essentials of our institutions, I for one could not be a progressive.
Woodrow Wilson wrote: All that progressives ask or desire is permission--in an era when
"development," "evolution," is the scientific word--to interpret the
Constitution according to the Darwinian principle; all they ask is
recognition of the fact that a nation is a living thing and not a machine.
I encourage folks with time and inclination to read the entire text. To summarize, Wilson saw Big Business in America as a power-base that dwarfed that of government; and that threatened the freedom and industry of "the little guy". In order to right that wrong, and correct what he saw as imbalance in power, he posits that government be "rewoven". By reworking the system from within the existing construct, government would acquire aggregate power sufficient to ward off the evils of Big Business and its' efforts to economically enslave the common man.

What he perhaps did not realize is that government merely replaced the abuse-of-power from Big Business with its' own abuse of power.

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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NickC
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Re: Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

Post by NickC »

fritferret wrote: ............ the other portions of the quote can't be found anywhere in anything wilson ever wrote. this is just nonsense nick and sloppy nonsense at that. this sloppiness on your part is consistent w/ you whole argument--wildly inaccurate and in many places just made up.

The New Freedom - Woodrow Wilson link provided above, where you can find the passages cited. The context presented in my posts was concise, intact, and substantive.

You are mistaken.
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butwhatif
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Re: Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

Post by butwhatif »

So everyone's correct. Much has been written on abuse of power. From a historical standpoint all facets contribute. What we see now is a culmination of them along with a modern media storm of dubious nature. We've allowed $ to taint the picture. Government 'for/of the people' has been in many places been replaced by government for just a few people, in the old guise.
We have on our hands a takeover of government by domestic and foreign monied interests, who also wield a huge media stick. These interests have money power able to jump thru changes in administrations and tenure in office. The US government has become a tool for these entities, it has, can and will be bought. Those of us w/o a card in the game do not stand much of a chance.
fritferret
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Re: Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

Post by fritferret »

NickC wrote:
fritferret wrote: ............ the other portions of the quote can't be found anywhere in anything wilson ever wrote. this is just nonsense nick and sloppy nonsense at that. this sloppiness on your part is consistent w/ you whole argument--wildly inaccurate and in many places just made up.

The New Freedom - Woodrow Wilson link provided above, where you can find the passages cited. The context presented in my posts was concise, intact, and substantive.

You are mistaken.
here's what you first quoted:

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

the first two sentence are NOWHERE in ANYTHING wilson EVER wrote. the third and fourth sentences of what you quote are inaccurate, but a version of them does appear the 8th and 9th chapters of the new freedom by wilson. what wilson actually said is below. first is where that modified third sentence comes from and after that i quote where the modified fourth sentence comes from.


from chapter 8:

"A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is privately concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men who, even if their action be honest and intended for the public interest, are necessarily concentrated upon the great undertakings in which their own money is involved and who necessarily, by very reason of their own limitations, chill and check and destroy genuine economic freedom."

from chapter 9:

"We have restricted credit, we have restricted opportunity, we have controlled development, and we have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world--no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men."


i'm not trying to be insulting, but everything that binds your views together is based on inaccuracies, oversimplifications and falsifications. you say i'm mistaken, but you did in fact misquote wilson and you misquoted him in such a way that made it sound like he was saying something he wasn't. you misqoute or mischaracterized everything you quote and i've shown that in re: to several of your posts by posting more context or giving the actual quotes or simply giving a factual correction. none of that, however, gives you pause. you just press on preaching that you're right even though i've shown you that you're in fact wrong in what you're saying by showing that you're wrong about material you're using to make your point. you may think you're ultimately right, but the substance of your arguments are just wrong, man.

this is an incredibly vague criticism:

"What [Wilson] perhaps did not realize is that government merely replaced the abuse-of-power from Big Business with its' own abuse of power. "

no doubt power can be abused, but i think it's pretty silly to claim that the gov is somehow abusing big business. big business has an enormous influence on politics in america. sure gov has flaws, but utopias by definition don't exist. no gov. would be a disaster. but you talk about small or smaller gov as if it's some kind of magic bullet and the talk about the current gov. in mischaracterized or simply false terms. take for example your first wilson quote from your most recent post. the very next paragraph, which you don't quote, is wilson giving an example of what he means by the previous paragraph. he actually writes, "let me illustrate what i mean," man. here that paragraph:

"Let me illustrate what I mean: It used to be true in our cities that every family occupied a separate house of its own, that every family had its own little premises, that every family was separated in its life from every other family. That is no longer the case in our great cities. Families live in tenements, they live in flats, they live on floors; they are piled layer upon layer in the great tenement houses of our crowded districts, and not only are they piled layer upon layer, but they are associated room by room, so that there is in every room, sometimes, in our congested districts, a separate family. In some foreign countries they have made much more progress than we in handling these things. In the city of Glasgow, for example (Glasgow is one of the model cities of the world), they have made up their minds that the entries and the hallways of great tenements are public streets. Therefore, the policeman goes up the stairway, and patrols the corridors; the lighting department of the city sees to it that the halls are abundantly lighted. The city does not deceive itself into supposing that great building is a unit from which the police are to keep out and the civic authority to be excluded, but it says: "These are public highways, and light is needed in them, and control by the authority of the city.""
Last edited by fritferret on Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
fritferret
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Re: Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

Post by fritferret »

talbany wrote:
did you read the affidavit all the way through? it pretty clearly says that given the significance of the problems found w/ the gibson imports, that the gov is seeking permission to search gibson's properties for evidence. one of the reasons the affidavit says the gov is so suspicious is because the kind of mistakes they found w/ the shipments don't appear to be mistakes, but rather look intentional. for example, the affidavit metnions a shipment of wood that would have otherwise been illegal to export were falsely describe and falsely coded to look like a shipment of wood that could be legally exported.

still sound to me like the doj is doing its job. also, the doj has said that it's not interested in yours or anyone elses guitars. they're only interested in corps that are intentionally breaking the law. or at least that's my reading of it. the illegal logging business has more to do w/ the 2009 raid, i think. and that wood has to do w/ madagascar, not india.
1) The issue isn’t at all about “sawed Indian ebony logs with paperwork identified as finger boards”. It’s about fingerboard blanks, and whether or not they can be considered a product involving enough native labor to satisfy the export laws of India. It’s also about a wrong (but closely related) tariff code being entered on only SOME of the paperwork.

2) What’s an acceptable product? As the agent himself pointed out in Gibson’s search warrant affidavit, there’s a distinction between a “fingerboard” (an unfretted wood blank of rough size) and a “fretboard” (which is slotted and contains fret wire). If so, then those are two different products, and as such it’s possible to have a fingerboard blank as distinguished from simply “sawn wood” – adding slots, wires, inlays, shaping and binding would make that blank into a related but different product. In the same way, we offer flat shell blanks, veneers, Abalam® sheets, and strips made to specifications according to what their intended use is: as materials which may or may not be remanufactured/incorporated into other types of finished products such as inlays, guitars, jewelry, furniture, fishing lures, and so on. Similarly, plywood is imported as a product unto itself without it needing to be in another and more final form such as furniture, boxes, or whatever.

To insist, as the U.S. agencies seem to be doing, that materials from India must be in their ultimate retail form is insane, especially in light of the Indian government not interpreting their own regs that way or insisting on such nonsense. Here lies much of the anger surrounding this controversy

What's confusing is that in the search warrant affidavit Agent Rayfield goes to some length in distinguishing an unslotted "fretboard" from a slotted and fretted "fingerboard" (Para. 13) as found on a finished instrument, and later (para. 22) distinguishes HS 9209.92.00 as "finished parts of musical instruments".

He also mentions (Para. 13) that "importers and exporters have sometimes referred to the sawn pieces of wood intended to be manufactured into fretboards as 'fingerboards' or 'fingerboard blanks'". But he contends that even though these may be informally referred to as "fingerboards" they're actually no more than "sawn wood" and being over 6mm in thickness are "sawn logs" (Para. 19 and 25) and thus a prohibited HS 4407 item (Para. 12).

So at issue is whether or not "fingerboards" exceeding 6mm are "finished parts for musical instruments" as would be allowed under HS 9209.92.00. If not, the argument is that they're "sawn logs" and illegal. We all know including the DOJ they will ultimately be used for Musical instruments!!

Tony
that stuff is in there, but what most struck me were the paragraphs about gibson allegedly intentionally tried to fool custom by mislabeling shipments and coding them to match the false label. i think that's the heart of the issues. it's also much harder to make fun of that allegation. it's much easier to say "this is stupid, are we really talking about a few tenths of an inch?!" that's part of the case, but it seems to be that the real matter is criminal and serious because gibson appears to have intentionally mislabeled shipments and then coded them to match the false labels in order to fools customs. how is that not serious? again, if this was an honest mistake, i think it would be playing out differently, but it looks like gibson intentionally engaged in criminal behavior.
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Structo
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Re: Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

Post by Structo »

That is what I got from reading the warrant as well.

So why hasn't the Gov filed charges if they have the evidence of this tampering of records?
Tom

Don't let that smoke out!
fritferret
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Re: Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

Post by fritferret »

Structo wrote:That is what I got from reading the warrant as well.

So why hasn't the Gov filed charges if they have the evidence of this tampering of records?
that is the question. i assume they're being thorough, but who knows. i don't think that not having pressed charges yet is evidence of a weak case.
kevster
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Re: Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

Post by kevster »

If Gibson intentionally misled through labelling and broke the law, then the government should prosecute them.

"Intentionally" is tough to prove. "Systematic" would be a logical word that should be present in any evidence presented. If there was one item mislabelled or one form in a chain mis-filed, then that isn't evidence of a deliberate act to smuggle wood. The government has the burden of proof here, and so far they've done a terrible job with this case.

Federal agents are human too. You get good and bad in every area. That doesn't excuse Gibson (if proven guilty), nor does it excuse the government for bad decisions (or politically charged agendas, if that were proven).

The whole things still doesn't pass the smell test, on either side.

If they are saying that Gibson cannot use Rosewood boards unless they are imported with fret wire in them, then Gibson will likely have to cease domestic production in a few years. There is no room for true craftsmanship or artisanship (seems like a good pseudo-word) if the components are finished elsewhere. The quality would be too diminished to maintain the brand. They are having enough problems with that right now as it is.

We'll see how the saga unfolds.
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