What do you believe regarding the sound of passive components?

[GAStan]

This poll seems to assume one has first hand experience.

I'll further explain...

There are (at leat) 3 answers for each item:
1. I changed the part and DID notice a difference- check the box
2. I changed the part and DID NOT notice a difference- leave box unchecked
3. I have never changed this part so have no opinion- how to indicate this?

On two items i have changed the part and noticed a difference so checked the boxes. On the rest I have never changed these parts so cannot say either way. But they are counted, incorrectly, as "I did not notice a change".

I also checked the last box because I did participate. Was it meant to be checked only if one has changed all parts but di not notice any differences?

I think I failed this poll...

[martin manning]

The intent is, if you think the factor makes a difference, regardless of how you came to that conclusion, check the box. If you don't believe it does, leave it un-checked. You have a point in that this will only capture the affirmative response. To capture the number of people with no opinion, another line item would be required for each question since an item can only have a yes or no response. The participation line captures how many respondents there are in total, so we can say for example "of x number of people surveyed, y said that resistor brand makes an audible difference."

[timrobertson100]

I don’t have the experience to have much opinion, but I do find these discussions thought provoking. The engineer in me wonders if the soldering conditions (e.g. amount of heat applied) might affect results.

[martin manning]

Some components are sensitive to heat, but generally resistors and capacitors are not. One exception that comes to mind is polystyrene caps.

[R.G.]

Got a story that seems like it might fit here...had a jam at my house a while a back, and a bass player I respect was using my rig. He kept twiddling the EQ until he had it exactly how he wanted. The problem? The active EQ wasn't turned on...He was *certain* he'd dialed it in, though! Once I pushed the button, there was absolutely a change in tone! I'm not saying some folks here aren't hearing differences; just saying that there are definitely some out there who only *think* they do.

You only have to work a service/repair phone desk for a short time to gain an understanding of just how strong the belief in [insert whatever real or imagined issue here] can be. We never did it, but the company I work for has flirted with putting a knob on pedals labeled just "More". Respect for the other customers always kept us just laughing about it and not doing it.

A side issue is that a person's beliefs are 100% true and real - to them, if not to the rest of the universe. Their opinion is rock-solid-fact in their mind, and can sometimes be changed if they will accept external proof, but if they're not numbers-and-measurement kinds of people, sometimes no amount of argument or logic will sway them. A common response is an ad hominem attack on the person even questioning the belief. Sometimes in hard cases, the more objective proof, the more they hold onto the belief.

I like the image here: https://thisisindexed.com/2011/04/you-c ... st-belief/

Having worked electronic design all my adult life, I learned early on that my first, second, and even more ideas about unexplained phenomena might be wrong. We seem to get a lot of people who say things like "Well, I can hear it, and I know that I hear it, so it's real and (to some extent) my explanation of the effect is right because I've always seen it work out that way." The difference is that I have had it shown to me in instrumentation and numbers that I can be wrong; so I always allow for the possibility that I can be wrong.

If someone has not measured the effects they believe in, and in a non-opinion, non-belief kind of test, they generally can't be convinced that their belief is not perfectly correct. I like Lord Kelvin's statement on knowing the numbers:

“When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely, in your thoughts advanced to the stage of science.”

If you can measure something, you have the beginnings of explaining it. If all you have is some experiences you relate - well, those are anecdotes. Here's a quote picked up from a page on common logical fallacies:

8. The Anecdotal Evidence Fallacy
In place of logical evidence, this fallacy substitutes examples from someone's personal experience.
Arguments that rely heavily on anecdotal evidence tend to overlook the fact that one (possibly isolated) example can't stand alone as definitive proof of a greater premise.

[WhopperPlate]

A side issue is that a person's beliefs are 100% true and real - to them, if not to the rest of the universe. Their opinion is rock-solid-fact in their mind, and can sometimes be changed if they will accept external proof, but if they're not numbers-and-measurement kinds of people, sometimes no amount of argument or logic will sway them. A common response is an ad hominem attack on the person even questioning the belief. Sometimes in hard cases, the more objective proof, the more they hold onto the belief.

When I look at the sky and see blue..,I don’t need to believe it’s blue…but if I disbelieved my own perceptions I would be committed to an asylum …somehow though its implied that when I hear a certain silver mica cap as brighter I should doubt myself because others have been wrong generally speaking when tested … how many labratory grade guitar ABX experiments have been documented thus far?

[Reeltarded]

The maths are perfect models.. perfect model DOES NOT mean math is all there is. It is a description of what math about a thing *is*.

I have never seen a circuit or layout or sketch that describes change with current and voltage vs frequency, much less all that in time.

ffs.. the OT prefers frequency seating based on activity. The whole system is dynamic. A stage plot is never going to do anything but give a clue... then you find reactive things..

It is impossible to make a truly scientific determination. Matching transformer things would cost us a large fortune. 100 iterations in you start to understand things you don't believe.

So many nearly identical amps. Small differences in the OT take much blame.

[R.G.]

When I look at the sky and see blue..,I don’t need to believe it’s blue…

Yep - you get to experience that the sky is blue. I think you're missing a subtlety here. Just because you believe it's blue doesn't mean it's NOT blue. The sky can be and has been independently measured for luminosity (Egad! There IS light coming from up there!) and the spectrum of light coming out of it, in the blue range of the human visible spectrum. The sky being blue can be repeatedly measured and verified. So your belief is justified, and more importantly, it can be measured and explained outside the belief system.

If you review my posts, you might find that I was trying to get to a concise statement of what you observed, exactly, and how that could be measured and captured, with the aim to apply this new knowledge to other amps.

but if I disbelieved my own perceptions I would be committed to an asylum …

Probably not. I sometimes disbelieve my own perceptions and I haven't been committed yet. So we have at least one counterexample. But then our relatives and friends may be tougher on you than mine are, possibly.

I did explain that I know I ...can... be wrong, so for things where there is no technical background, I fall back on measurement. If an instrument designed for the purpose reinforces >>independent of my opinions<< that I'm right, I start to believe. If the measurements say no, you're not right, then I start digging harder for what is really happening.

somehow though its implied that when I hear a certain silver mica cap as brighter I should doubt myself because others have been wrong generally speaking when tested …

Not at all.
First, the issue that started this mess was the casual statement that a certain brand of resistor made an amp sound better in a certain way.

My response was to inquire how that could be.
Is the certain brand of resistor somehow different from other brands? How exactly?
Does it have a different frequency response? That is, does it depart from R = V/I at high frequencies, low frequencies, mid frequencies, where?
Does it distort? (insert carbon comp experience retelling here; they do distort under highly specific circumstances) At low voltages? High voltages? When it's cold vs when it's hot?
If either of these, how much? That is, where in that brand of resistor's characteristics does it depart from V = I * R, so we can nail down the effect and use it to build more better sounding amps.
Moreover, is one resistor of the favored brand in an amp enough to make it sound better? Or is it cumulative? Do you have to do them all? Are there any of the resistors in an amp that matter more (that one is right out of the CC resistor distortion stuff, BTW) and some positions that matter less? Does adding one resistor of the magi... er, favored, brand improve any amp?
Are there magically bad/cursed resistor brands that would cause any amp to sound worse if you put one in?




It's one thing to say that Brand X resistors make your amp sound good. It's quite another to (a) define "good" (!!) and then to say HOW this magic works and how to use the magic wand ..er, resistor to make other amps sound good.

[Reeltarded]

8. The Anecdotal Evidence Fallacy
In place of logical evidence, this fallacy substitutes examples from someone's personal experience.
Arguments that rely heavily on anecdotal evidence tend to overlook the fact that one (possibly isolated) example can't stand alone as definitive proof of a greater premise.

Uhh.. I know people with old houses who swear the drainage problems are somewhere in the water supply. You don't have to be a toilet doctor to know it all runs downhill. First principle.

[Reeltarded]

I have one experience with three boards in one amp with different resistors. The amp is well recorded with the identical recording setup and one growls different, one is very much angrier, and one just sounded great.

But that one goes GGggggggNAHHRRR! And everyone looks at the speakers with that

[WhopperPlate]

When I look at the sky and see blue..,I don’t need to believe it’s blue…

Yep - you get to experience that the sky is blue. I think you're missing a subtlety here. Just because you believe it's blue doesn't mean it's NOT blue.

When a storm is coming I feel the rain fall , see the lighting , and hear the thunder . Who needs believing ?

First, the issue that started this mess was the casual statement that a certain brand of resistor made an amp sound better in a certain way.

I am certain the statement referenced has to do with describing the percussive upper mid character of a koa resistor described by myself and bepone . Here is a link to the thread for reference: https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 5&start=15

Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I can’t find anyone that called them better .

Allow me to quote myself:

Determining a difference between A and B is one thing…but on the subject of what sounds best… like a violin….I am an adamant proponent of the philosophy that opinions are like assholes …

My response was to inquire how that could be.
Is the certain brand of resistor somehow different from other brands? How exactly?
Does it have a different frequency response? That is, does it depart from R = V/I at high frequencies, low frequencies, mid frequencies, where?
Does it distort? (insert carbon comp experience retelling here; they do distort under highly specific circumstances) At low voltages? High voltages? When it's cold vs when it's hot?
If either of these, how much? That is, where in that brand of resistor's characteristics does it depart from V = I * R, so we can nail down the effect and use it to build more better sounding amps.
Moreover, is one resistor of the favored brand in an amp enough to make it sound better? Or is it cumulative? Do you have to do them all? Are there any of the resistors in an amp that matter more (that one is right out of the CC resistor distortion stuff, BTW) and some positions that matter less? Does adding one resistor of the magi... er, favored, brand improve any amp?
Are there magically bad/cursed resistor brands that would cause any amp to sound worse if you put one in?

It's one thing to say that Brand X resistors make your amp sound good. It's quite another to (a) define "good" (!!) and then to say HOW this magic works and how to use the magic wand ..er, resistor to make other amps sound good.

Allow me to quote myself yet again, as I have already directly answered a few of these questions to the best of my ability in the referenced thread :

For sake of clarity, it is implied that “brand” in this case is a general reference to each company’s component recipe , which as mentioned previously can indeed variate from each production run .

…

Is replacing one resistor in an amp enough to move it toward percussive, or midrange-y, or trebly? Do you have to do all of them? Are there subtle blends of multiple brands that can give you percussive midrange-y and treble-y at the same time? Do KOAs work best with hum buckers, and you need to change out your resistors for Strats?

IME (like I said hours of fun )

1. Yes. Depends where and how much based on composition and brand . In your typical guitar amp try negative feedback , bias feed, PI cathode , v1 plate , ect

2. If you do all of them it will be extreme one way or another , all depends composition and brand .

3. I have to use subtle blends to achieve what I want and others ask of me . I depend on this .

4. Koas do work well for humbuckers, but I find that with a strat you need some other brands to balance the sound as it becomes a bit pingy and too percussive, if that makes sense.

…

One way or another I am sure , I don’t have those resources to quantify every dynamic , but tell you what when you set up the double blind listening tests ( better to be blind playing , hearing the guitar under fingers is important ) you can use me as the Guinea pig and try to make a fool of me and my claims .

It’s ironic with all of this talk about belief , because I wouldn’t want anyone to simply believe my observations , I would want them to try it themselves if they were truly passionate and obsessive about building guitar amps . Why wouldn’t you if you love to do something? I digress , I am just offering my testimony over my lifetime of professional and amatuer experiences. Cross examine against your own , don’t take them as gospel , not that anyone would

[WhopperPlate]

when and where is the next ampgarage ABX convention ? I can bring coffee and donuts !

[bepone]

I have one experience with three boards in one amp with different resistors. The amp is well recorded with the identical recording setup and one growls different, one is very much angrier, and one just sounded great.

But that one goes GGggggggNAHHRRR! And everyone looks at the speakers with that

Ofcourse, this is what we are speaking about here..no need to prove it.. why someone should bother to prove something to the people which doesnt want to move a finger?

And then after even if you prove something , those people reading that ,again without moving finger or soldering iron will go just half step forward. they will repeat the same story after few years, because they only learn it, not experience it, and with time information will expire.

There is a lot of infos and if someone want to explere tone, he need to heat up the chair, there are many guidelines. Who dosent want , even with 10 years of forum reading, will be the same position, with the same (very boring) "beliefs"...

[TUBEDUDE]

That ìs too true. All of the minutiae I obsess about to get the response I want is mostly hidden in the mix. The feel is still important but the qualitIes i love about my tones are not likely audible to anyone except in solo passages. And so it goes.

[martin manning]

With over 30 responses we can now (rashly) claim statistical significance. Interesting results, thanks all!