Ray Butts Echosonic #27

[vibratoking]

I have never seen so many pics that no one seems to care about. Yawn...

[Structo]

I've asked the OP questions before about this amp and apparently all he is interested in is spamming the forum with pictures.

[Echosonic27]

Hi DV8amps (and others), this is surely your first post here. I could tell by the distasteful posting that you are a friend of Tim's, clearly showing why your aer biased here, and some of your asumptions have come out of nowhere and have no factual basis. It's okay./.. I don't hate you; you're Nobody. And for that reason and also since you're not an amp guy as you've said, I'll thank you to not try to bring your personal drama about your friends here.

For those that claim having difficulty finding interest.... well you're interested enough to post here so that suggests otherwise.....unless your interest are to cause trouble. Please no drama or politics, etc. TRY to be professional....

You can make ridiculous comparisons about looking for the KFC recipe or the secret ingredient in Coca-Cola, but I actually OWN one of these amps, so I have the 'secret'... and I Hate secrets, especially when those who have the secret are: 1) trying to make money off of its use, and 2) won't share the secret. Well... I won't make money, and I'll spread the secret like wildfire.

That being said, I'll clarify a few things just for the sake of others here.

I'm not out of the Echosonic 'future'; I'm right here right now and I ain't goin' anywhere. I'll be helping others, as I have been doing for some time now, to build their own Echosonic. Slash and burn? I think not. I have the amp, and I'll safely assume that you do not. And you claim that all this hard-to-find info is on the internet already becasue Tim & Lorenz built some? Where..? They were able to build some because Tim bought a real rough-looking one in a Standel cabinet from ebay for around $200 or so. Wherever you find any important technical information or photos of these amps, I am there and usually the one who provided it.

Tim does have Katha's 'blessing' (clearly you follow Facebook... ) but he does not hold the patent to this amp. The Patent is public domain, and anyone can legally build these amps, having the correct information. He's "keeping his info proprietary", meaning that he's not sharing it, because he is trying to sell them. (and yes it's posted everywhere online that to buy one, you have to pass his interview... read up, chum...). But trying to convince others not to share the info, as they did to me and others...? I find that to be motivated by money or lack of _________ . I can't help but offer the information to all others, so that future generations will have it. I Love the World.

I simply will provide all required materials for anyone to be able to have such an amp, and I will keep doing so for free, even the free housecalls for repair


Lots of people care about this amp. I understand that this forum is about building with new parts, but this is the Holy Grail of vintage tube guitar amps, for it's role in Rock n Roll. If you don't want to fire up any amp with old components, you will never get the vintage tone. But it is a personal choice that we all respect.

Here's the schematic of the 1961 Rckenbacker Ek-O-Sound amp. It has the same patent # as the Ray Butts Echosonic, and is practically identical, save for a few component specs here and there. Of course, Ray made modifications over the years, but this schem works. The technical interest and speciality of this amp is the tape echo board of course.

You may not realize how important this amp is; as you've said, you dont know much about amps. But try searching for information to build one; you'll be hard-pressed to find much, but I am changing that slowly but surely.

[Echosonic27]

I've asked the OP questions before about this amp and apparently all he is interested in is spamming the forum with pictures.

You certainly post quite a bit, so I was surprised that you would think that I go thru all this time and trouble for spamming purposes.

Not At All.

I post my information and photos in multiple locations online so that it faciliates finding the information. Imagine if only 1 webpage had the info for something you're looking for....

[Teleguy61]

Please people.
This is an AMPLIFIER forum, not a PERSONAL VENDETTA
forum.
Let's stay on point.

[Structo]

Are you the same guy as TelecasterTech?

I asked you a simple question about your identity on page 1 which you chose to ignore.
You seem to presume a lot.

[vibratoking]

Thanks for posting the schematic. It is interesting.

Lots of people care about this amp. I understand that this forum is about building with new parts, but this is the Holy Grail of vintage tube guitar amps, for it's role in Rock n Roll.

Lots of people is a relative term. This forum isn't just about building amps with new parts. Some build with new parts and others build with NOS parts. Some old parts have a high probablility of catastrophic failure. Making them an unwise choice for safety and failure reasons.

I doubt many amp fanatics will agree that the Echosonic is the Holy Grail of amps. You may feel that way, but how many websites are focused on that amp? I don't feel the Echosonic is in the top ten of Holy Grail amps.

I can only speak for myself, but building a full replica of the Echosonic is not really worth my time. Dealing with tape heads is more trouble than it is worth IMO. In 2011 there are just too many good ways to implement tape delay without the hassle of a built in electromechanical unit.

[Echosonic27]

Thanks for posting the schematic. It is interesting.

Lots of people is a relative term. This forum isn't just about building amps with new parts. Some build with new parts and others build with NOS parts. Some old parts have a high probablility of catastrophic failure. Making them an unwise choice for safety and failure reasons.

I can only speak for myself, but building a full replica of the Echosonic is not really worth my time. Dealing with tape heads is more trouble than it is worth IMO. In 2011 there are just too many good ways to implement tape delay without the hassle of a built in electromechanical unit.

Hi VribatoKing, and thanks for your input. Yes I would agree that older components obviously pose a greater risk than the new technology that is readily available. Speaker technology has also come a long way, and they are more efficient than ever. Building a replica of this amp takes a long time, and researching the information on the mysterious tape delay board is also time consuming. It is purely for hobby, nostalgic and tribute purposes to make one, but there are people that just love The Sound. For me, simple amps aren't fun at all; the knowledge fuels mey interest.

It would be great to hear about the newer ways of implementing tape echo technology in amps, hopefully tube based!! It is perhaps this analog technology that gives it that special something.

[DV8amps]

"Hi DV8amps (and others), this is surely your first post here."

Yes. You can tell because it said "Posts: 1" under my name. No points.

"I could tell by the distasteful posting that you are a friend of Tim's, clearly showing why your aer biased here"

Yes. I wrote in plain English that I personnaly know Tim. No points.

"some of your asumptions have come out of nowhere and have no factual basis."

Which ones? The one saying you are "telecasterTech"? That's true. No points.

The one saying you have been banned on some other forums? That's true. I know because I was the one that brought it to the Admin's attention on a few of them, and they personally emailed me back thanking me for bringing the fraud of your multiple accounts to their attention. I can't give you any points there either.

"you're Nobody"

True! you get a point. In the "amp world" I am a nobody....but I kinda admitted that, but I'm going to award the point anyway! Yay! you're on the board!

"I'll thank you to not try to bring your personal drama about your friends here"

I didn't bring it here...YOU DID. If you had never cut and pasted your rants on here, or continued it after you claimed in an email I saw, that you were trying to delete those posts you would have never heard of me! I recall you mentioned some were gone already...Yeah I know. That was me, not you. But i do feel the need to defend a friend that is obviously the target of your tirade. (Didn't you say in an email, that you would even take a week off of work to try to ruin those three people? What does that say about your own bias???) No point.


"Please no drama or politics, etc. TRY to be professional.... "

Well....There is no post number attached to the posts like most forums, but your post:

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:50 pm Post subject: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED....................

(Which was edited 2 times...maybe to remove the part that sometimes shows it signed: "Frank"???)

And:

Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:54 pm Post subject: ECHOSONIC RESTORATION - BEFORE - 1

.....both seem to be dramatic and non-professional. Why not just post about the amp and leave out the drama? (Lord knows, if the mods or admin had done something about your attack post in this thread, I would have never felt the need to add to the drama) No points.



"You can make ridiculous comparisons about looking for the KFC recipe or the secret ingredient in Coca-Cola, but I actually OWN one of these amps, so I have the 'secret'... and I Hate secrets, especially when those who have the secret are: 1) trying to make money off of its use, and 2) won't share the secret. Well... I won't make money, and I'll spread the secret like wildfire."

I don't see it as that ridiculous...Apples to oranges maybe, but the circumstances are very similar. Harlan Sanders has passed away, and someone else has carried on with his business, and is OH NO! making evil, dirty, money off of it!!!!! Guess what? I have OWNED my fair share of KFC chicken....and washed it down with TOP SECRET Coca-Cola!!! I had "That secret" (for a while anyway), and I don't hate those secrets... I LOVED them...They were tasty! I'm not going to share those secrets...everyone will have to buy their own!

....and you are kinda spreading that secret more like those little flaming brown bags of dogpoop on the front step at Halloween, than a wildfire. So no point.

"I'm not out of the Echosonic 'future'; I'm right here right now and I ain't goin' anywhere. I'll be helping others, as I have been doing for some time now, to build their own Echosonic. Slash and burn? I think not. I have the amp, and I assume that you do not based on t. And you claim that all this hard-to-find info is on the internet already becasue Tim & Lorenz built some? Where..? They were able to build some because Tim bought a real rough-looking one in a Standel cabinet from ebay for around $200 or so. Wherever you find any important technical information or photos of these amps, I am there and usually the one who provided it."

Well...you have burned all the bridges with the people most involved with Echosonic's future......so..... No point....but, you are right...I don't have the amp....I've seen about 5 or 6 in a room together though, and seen them being built and repaired, and I've seen all the equipment that was used to build them...and all the drawings, and paperwork with legends of rock and roll history listed on them, and whatnot....so one point there?

From Proteus on The Gretsch Pages:


"That tone haunted him – he wanted an amp – he couldn't find one for sale. With some experience building electronics, he took on the mission of re-creating the amp. He had never heard or seen one in person, and
worked from partial schematics he was able to find online, and photos of the amps.

Eventually he posted on Scottie Moore's guestbook about his project, and found that he had a German counterpart, Lorenz Stark, who was on much the same mission. They collaborated long-distance, putting what they knew together, pooling their experience, combining what they able to learn and guess about the amps.

Both had test chassis in progress, building up and developing various circuits in the amp, working from the fragmentary information they had and deducing what they couldn't see or confirm. Both ran into numerous roadblocks, and though they'd been working since 2002-2003, as late as a couple years ago neither had a working amp.

Then Tim located and bought an original amp and was able to reverse-engineer it. He was able to confirm much of his and Lorenz's work, there were numerous aha moments making clear how something had been done, and he was finally able to pull back the panels in the tape unit and other hidden components.

Sometime in 2007 (don't quote me on it - and I think the info can be found in Tim's posts on the GDP), he and Lorenz finally had working EchoSonics, the first new ones since Ray had turned out his last unit (as late as the early 90s, I believe).

So...THAT info and pictures.

Looks like you might not be the first person to post pics and info.

"Tim does have Katha's 'blessing' (clearly you follow Facebook... ) but he does not hold the patent to this amp. The Patent is public domain, and anyone can legally build these amps, having the correct information. He's "keeping his info proprietary", meaning that he's not sharing it, because he is trying to sell them"

I don't have, nor have I ever had, at this point in time, a facebook, or myspace, or twitter...or anything like that, account. So no point there.

The patent may very well be public domain, but the trademark isn't (but you know that because it is the way you knew Tim's middle name...right?)

And again....WHAT'S SO WRONG WITH SOMEONE MAKING MONEY OFF OF BUILDING AND SELLING AMPS??? (man....I can't even use "Komrad" there, because even the Soviets think it's ok to make money now)

" (and yes it's posted everywhere online that to buy one, you have to pass his interview... read up, chum...)."

Well...not EVERYWHERE...just on The Gretsch Pages that I have seen:
Proteus again:


"According to everybody who's used one, the amps run extremely hot - which can't be good for components. And the tape units take frequent fiddling-with. So they're not set-and-forget amps for monkeys to throw around. They're more like the instruments which are played through them.

Masters knows that such a high-strung amp might produce unpleasant surprises in the field for hapless and oblivious owners expecting appliance-like performance. Thus his care not to sell to anyone who doesn't understand what he's getting – and who doesn't want the tone dream to come true as much as Tim did.

But if you fall into that group – and you think it's worth in the neighborhood of 6k – you can contact Tim Masters and get on the list today for a brand spankin' new EchoSonic."

Now...that was a while back, but all rumors and bad info that this statement produced aside.... The fabled "interview" is nothing more than what might go down in a pet store when you purchase your brand new Boa Constricter....they MIGHT just want to give you a run-down on what to expect, and how to care for it....and don't leave it in the baby's crib, etc. Not a "test" you have to pass!

And that figure of 6K was when he had (for legal reasons) to have a finished product for sale, and he hoped it didn't sell, so he put a high price on it for that reason....a new one is a lot cheaper than that, plus, as I recall, that one had an original tape board and pedal on it.

Hey!....looks like there are lots of pictures of Echosonics on that thread!

"But trying to convince others not to share the info, as they did to me and others...? I find that to be motivated by money or lack of _________ . I can't help but offer the information to all others, so that future generations will have it. I Love the World"

What "others"? Your multiple forum accounts maybe?

And I don't "Love the World"....That's something that hippies do, and I don't like hippies....They're dirty and they stink!



"I simply will provide all required materials for anyone to be able to have such an amp, and I will keep doing so for free, even the free housecalls for repair "

Really that's cool of you! I heard a guy in New Zealand is having trouble with his tape board!

I quit keeping score, but I think I won?


To everyone else on this forum....I appologize for adding to the drama. I know you guys don't care about this drama....and as a forum Admin on another site...I know how that goes, but like I said.... I felt the need to set some things straight with "TelecasterTech/Echosonic27/Frank Roy", and I absolutely didn't want him having my email address!!!!

I also tried to keep it light-hearted while pointing a few things out.

Again...If the intent of the thread wasn't malicious...Why the fake account, and quoting himself (as TelecasterTech) from another forum?

I'll bow out...but wouldn't be awesome if this WHOLE THREAD dissappeared like the ones on some of the other forums?

[Echosonic27]

Despite your large amount of incorrect/exaggerated comments here, I can't be bothered to bore others by underlining them, nor continue this drama you keep feeding. It's Admins like you (I hope there's not many of you...), as the media does, that try to censor information, and make ridiculous rules like "you can't post links from other forums in ours". And lots of people have more than one account by the way, just like you do. You can try to joke and poke with your psychobabble, but bottom line is this: There are no real detailed useful photos nor schematic (real Echosonic schem) nor enough information online currently to build an Echosonic amp nor its tape delay board, and that's is why I'm offering my information - period.

And your 'eating KFC' analogy..? It's equivalent to playing thru an Echosonic, not actually having one. And since most folks can't get access to an Echosonic due to their rarity, it's much different than stopping for
chicken & pop at the corner. Since you're not an amp guy, I don't expect you to understand building or owning them.

I know you believe in what you said: "I'm not going to share those secrets...everyone will have to buy their own! ". But I am of the other side: "I'm sharing the secrets and everyone can build their own". Then it Won't Be A Secret anymore. Clearly, I hate money and greed, so my disclaimer for my pics is to try to stop people from making money off of them. But it's good to have both sides out there... that way, people who can't build their own can opt to buy, and vice versa.

One thing I could believe is that Tim priced his amp high for legal reasons - it's entirely possible and I hadn't thought about it until you mentionned it. I can believe that because you need to have something for sale for the trademark. Regardless, I've moved on from caring about their endeavours (and yours), and I'm moving forward with mine.

[Reeltarded]

I tried to reply, but the 4 ways all came back to me flagging the whole schpiel as self-promotion, and marketing makes me ill.

I don't know how to be nice about it. There are reasons some things are rare.

[Cliff Schecht]

Echosonic I'm going to track you down and pee on your amp. Just giving you fair warning.

We can just as easily request this thread be locked/deleted instead of letting two outsiders bitch about an amp that most of us only give a slight shit about.

Also your comments on most of us using new parts as opposed to old parts was very wrong. Lots of guys on here, me included, have a stash of NOS and vintage parts that would put old TV repair shops to shame. My warning about using those caps comes from personal experience, I've pulled apart too many malfunctioning old amps only to find the ancient plastic caps (i.e. Hunts and some Good-All caps) are literally crumbling in my hand. The bodies of these old caps collect condensation and eventually swell and crack.

[Gibsonman63]

Echosonic I'm going to track you down and pee on your amp.

Just make sure it is unplugged first or it will be like peeing on an electric fence.

[Echosonic27]

Echosonic I'm going to track you down and pee on your amp. Just giving you fair warning.

Cliff, don't threaten nor warn me ever again, as that is illegal. I'm a computer security specialist, so imagine the security technology in my house. I'm also involved in the legal field, so I know what I'm saying here. Regardless, I've taken a screenshot of your posting just in case you decide to edit it.

My comment about users in this forum preferring new components vs vintage/NOS was a general statement. Clearly not :everyone: uses new parts here; anyone reading it would have the common sense to realize this. You're trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Let me know when you intend on coming to visit me. I'll have coffee on, waiting with my friends from the Law Enforcement.

[M Fowler]

What a worthless thread and a damn fool to boot!

What a joke! Take this shit load of crap to TGP where it belongs.