ODS (Ceriatone) Cleans

[AdrianJ]

Hi,

Fairly new around these parts - also new to amp building (nothing like throwing yourself in at the deep end!!), and don't have a D-type amp yet, but...

Soon to be ordering 2 kits from Nik at Ceriatone, one 5E7 and his OTS. I've done plenty of electronics before, can solder and follow circuit diagrams, know what precautions to take etc, but this will be my first attempt at building an amp, so my intention is to build the 5E7 first to see how it goes, before trying the OTS.

The idea being that if I'm not confident efter building the 5E7 I can get it built by a friend who used to work for Matamp and now works for Ashdown/Hayden. Would probably then use the 5E7 as a test bed for experimenting and trying out new things.

Anyhow, to the topic of this thread.

As I understand it, Nik's kit is (more or less) based on #124 and is a good amp as stock. However I am particularly interested in tweaking the clean side of the amp to get SSS/Two-Rock style cleans. (I play a strat and am chasing John Mayer type clean tones - check out Slow Dancing In A Burning Room on his new live album to see what I mean).

Is this possible?

What components/values should I be looking at changing to acheive get it in this direction?

What effect would these changes have on the OD channel as I still want that to be useable?

Honestly, might I be better off tweaking the 5E7 for the clean tone I want and using the OTS primarily for OD in a 2-amp setup?

Finally (for now!) how good are the cleans from the OTS using a 2x12" Oval backed cab with Celestion G1265's in? (favouring these over USA alternatives due to the relative low cost in the UK).

Thanks for your help.

[Rob Livesey]

Hi Adrian,

Where are you in the UK? If you've got mates that worked at Matamp then you might be up north. I'm in Oswaldtwistle, Lancs, and I have a tweaked Overtone and a few Fuchs amps. I'd be happy to chat and / or let you play my amps.

Cheers,
Rob.

[AdrianJ]

Rob,

Indeed I am up north, the other side of the Pennines from you in sunny (yeah right!!) Huddersfield.

Might take you up on that offer...in what way have you tweaked your Overtone?

[BJF]

Hi,

Excuse that I don't know what a 5E7 is or much anything at all about Dumbleamps and will not care to know either as at some point I'd like to meet the guy himself.

No, I don't think I look rich enough to ever play a Dumble at a guitarshow

Anyway, Nick at Ceriatone makes fine kits and is a nice guy to talk with.

I would think it would be possible for you to tweak the amplifier kit you have gotten only if you use your skills and then you can make better than you expect finetuning to your demands.

You know the spirit is more in finetuning to the player's needs than anything else.

So how about just starting building the thing and then listen to what sucks and how to remove what sucks..............and then you'd make your own but something that aligns to your playingstyle.

What are names really in that? Is it not really in how it feels to play?

Have fun and I would think you would not go wrong with Ceriatone

just a thought
BJ

[AdrianJ]

Hi,

Excuse that I don't know what a 5E7 is or much anything at all about Dumbleamps and will not care to know either as at some point I'd like to meet the guy himself.

No, I don't think I look rich enough to ever play a Dumble at a guitarshow

Anyway, Nick at Ceriatone makes fine kits and is a nice guy to talk with.

I would think it would be possible for you to tweak the amplifier kit you have gotten only if you use your skills and then you can make better than you expect finetuning to your demands.

You know the spirit is more in finetuning to the player's needs than anything else.

So how about just starting building the thing and then listen to what sucks and how to remove what sucks..............and then you'd make your own but something that aligns to your playingstyle.

What are names really in that? Is it not really in how it feels to play?

Have fun and I would think you would not go wrong with Ceriatone

just a thought
BJ

Hi,

A 5E7 doesn't have anything to do with Dumble, it's an old Fender circuit (though HAD may have modded a few in his time - who knows!!) that is A LOT simpler than the Overtone circuit. I intend to build the 5E7 first to make sure that I am confident with building an entire amp then move on to the Overtone - if I make a mess of building the 5E7 I can get the Overtone built by someone else...

[BJF]

Hi,

Oh, you mean a Fender 5E7?

By all means try that and it's a classic circuit.

Hm, I don't think a Ceriatone Overtone would be that much more difficult though, it would just take longer time to wire and if you are very patient you'd do fine.

The parts to look out for are more in the power section and those must be right to make a safe amp.

In the preamp you can do almost any mambo jambo as long as you make safe connections and observe isolation.

Have fun
BJ

[AdrianJ]

In the preamp you can do almost any mambo jambo as long as you make safe connections and observe isolation.

Sometimes that's where the magic comes from isn't it??

When I finish building it, before I fire it up I'll be getting a friend to check it all for me.

[BJF]

Hi,

Yes,

Good thinking two pairs of eyes see more than one.

Have fun
BJ

[massygt6]

from my experience:

-remove the local feedback network on V1B makes an evident difference, allowing the sound to spread on a larger frequency spectrum

-remove the 15pF cap across the master volume, sounds fuller and less sharp.

-if your intent is to make a clean amp you could try to lower V1A and V1B plates to 100k

[dave g]

I would not simply remove the LNFB. At the very least put it on a toggle switch. NFB actually does exactly the opposite of what you say - it improves bandwidth at the expense of a small amount of gain in that stage.

A lot of people (myself included) prefer the sound of the LNFB on CL2 in non-HRM amps.

[AdrianJ]

I've read that Two Rock tone controls effect a wider range of frequencies, what values would I need to change to acheive this?

[dave g]

The stock tonestack in the OTS is the standard skyliner. Try it before you go messing with things...oh, and don't believe everything you read about two-rocks

[JamesO]

I recently put my Two-Rock Jet next to a Twin Reverb and quite honestly didn't hear a difference in the cleans. Same tone, harmonic, punch, and sustain. I'd build your new kit as specified and see how you like it.

I'm heading out the door right now, but if you really want to try doing what Two-Rock does, change the 5uf capacitor that goes to pin 3 of the first tube to a 1uf. The resistors in that area all stay the same. Can't remember if the tonestack capacitors change or not, but I can look at my notes.

I'm trying to use non-technical language because when I started, I sure wouldn't know what someone meant if they told me V1a.

[dogears]

Actually James, the Two Rock Custom Reverb Sig V1 had a 1uf on V1b (second triode that feeds CL2) The Jet pics I have show a 4.7uf there, as well as the 150K to ground (FET simulation resistor). The V1 power supply node had no loading on the CRS Version 1 and the voltages were like 240V or so.

I suppose there could be several variations of the Jet, but what I saw had 4.7uf on all four stages. 220K/150k plates on both tubes.

I'm heading out the door right now, but if you really want to try doing what Two-Rock does, change the 5uf capacitor that goes to pin 3 of the first tube to a 1uf. The resistors in that area all stay the same. Can't remember if the tonestack capacitors change or not, but I can look at my notes.

I'm trying to use non-technical language because when I started, I sure wouldn't know what someone meant if they told me V1a.

[JamesO]

You're totally right Scott, I got that wrong. The 1uf goes to V1b.

4.7uf/3.3k to V1a (pin 3)
1uf/2.2k to V1b (pin 8 )
220k/150k plates on V1 and V2 (220k to pin 1, 150k to pin 6)

I'm positive about the 1uf. I bought the amp so I could finally just see for myself what the talk is about and also take a look inside.