New 183 build

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WhopperPlate
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Re: New 183 build

Post by WhopperPlate »

Stephen1966 wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:20 pm
WhopperPlate wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:54 pm With all that said … when I fine tune and dial in any amplifier I want it to sound musical at low volumes . I want it to give up the goods without choking off. It’s kinda like mixing a record , if you crank it up the whole time you lose perspective and your ears fatigue . Next thing you know you are over and under tweaking . A good amp doesn’t need to be cranked to sound good , but it’s definitely going to sound better 8)
Amen to that.

And to these professionals... There's a guy who built a point to point 183 out of random parts, no particular goals I could figure, and I like his enthusiasm. I recommended him to someone, some time after I first heard him. So I went back, and listened again. It was not a pretty sight! It was not a sound or tone that I would have been happy with. But he thought it was the greatest. I mean, that is a standard in today's listening environment. It could well have been better than anything he had heard before, but I just knew it wasn't quite there. There is something, very definitely to be said for having a trained ear like you describe. I also grew up in a musical environment with some very talented musicians around me and I'm lucky to have had the experience of being transported by the music, the groove, whatever we might call. On stage and off. I keep a little Vox practice amp to calibrate my ears. Every time I start to feel I am losing touch with the "sound" I go back to Vox and remind myself of how truly awful, solid state amps can sound. When you start to go round and round on an ODS its good to go back to a Tweedle Dee and hear the sag again and the roar of that little amp. It's very easy to lose our tonal balance if we don't recalibrate our ears every now and again.

If you haven't checked out bepone's YT link on his 183s thread, I recommend you do that... He's a very talented guy and his amp tone has moments of brilliance the way he recorded it. Maybe he could tell you about the settings he used in that recording but it isn't all that necessary, I think you can hear it.

Perhaps we shouldn't be so apologetic about our ranting, I don't buy the "navel gazing/cork sniffing" argument. Sometimes, to do a thing right, you have to dig down. Digging down here, means evaluating the sound holistically, the amp is more than the sum of parts. A magical combination. Elements include all the material parts but also the experiences which inform its presence.
Cheers to all of that ! Amen !

When all else fails I keep myself grounded with my Santa Cruz guitar company dreadnought and my 100 yr old baby grand piano.

Bepone is doing good things . Cheers to the passion and love ! Glad to know we all exist .
Charlie
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Re: New 183 build

Post by bepone »

he he thanks guys for kind words, we are just great group here, many invisible things were discovered in the past 10-15 years and there is a lot more in front of us to dig and reconstruct HADs ideas! one person will need 50 years in trying of all of combinations, but our group on this forum is moving fast forward! :wink:
Stephen1966
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Re: New 183 build

Post by Stephen1966 »

Okay! I have most of the parts on order now. I couldn't find a single Xicon 110k for the PI so I am giving bepone's KOAs a shot. Oddly, I had to go through Tube Town for many of the single Xicon CFs, Mouser sells many of them only in batches of 100 - cheap enough compared to some of the other types I've ordered. From the HiFi Collective in the UK, I got hold of some Allen Bradley's, Amtrans, Ohmite, their PR9372s and Kiwame for the more senstive areas of the signal paths. Alongside the Xicons and "regular" brands, I will be able to audition these "Audio-grade" types... Time will tell if they live up to the hype and are worth, the expense + custom's duties + wait for customs to do its job :lol:

Working up the layouts and preparing the chassis is the next step...
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Re: New 183 build

Post by bepone »

will start like "exotic" version (i didnt see any build with PRP resistors! couldnt wait for the review :wink: ) and probably after some time "eric johnson" parts will find their place.. 8)
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Re: New 183 build

Post by Stephen1966 »

bepone wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:34 pm will start like "exotic" version (i didnt see any build with PRP resistors! couldnt wait for the review :wink: ) and probably after some time "eric johnson" parts will find their place.. 8)
That's not far from the truth! The idea, is really to use none or at least the very minimum of exotics - the listening tests are going to be very important.

Here's a breakdown of the exotics I'm going to be trying out...

Amtrans AMRG Carbon Film Resistors

100k and 180k in series with the coupling caps (OD V2a out and V2b out). For those positions, I have Xicon CF, 1W - about 100th the cost :lol:
amtrans_350.jpg
Amtrans, from Japan, used to be the distributor for Riken resistors. In 2005 they bought a resistor factory, whether this was the original Riken premises they wouldn`t confirm. Soon came the AMRG carbon film resistor, which they claim is better than the Riken as they have employed cutting edge technologies for production. Indeed they aren`t far from the truth, these are truly amazing.
They are available in 0.75 watts and 2 watts, from 10R to 1.5M. The full E24 range is available for the 0.75W and the E12 range for the 2Ws. They have a 1% tolerance, non-magnetic, they are encapsulated in a black anodized aluminium case, potted in a highly thermally conductive resin, brass end caps, and gold-plated oxygen-free copper leadouts. A lot to boast we believe and at an incredible price.

PRP PR9372 Series Metal Film

100k for the FX (Dumbleator) recovery side plate - I've used Dales with success but I am trying to integrate the Dumbleator in this build with similar components to the rest of the amp. Otherwise, I have an H4P MF 1W for this position.

150k and 220k for the plates of V1 and V2. Similarly, I have H4P 150k 1W and Xicon MF 0.5W for those positions.
prp_pr9372_350.jpg
The PR9372 Audio Resistor is manufactured in Mediapolis, Iowa, USA, by Precision Resistive Products Inc. and has been designed into many high-end audio products worldwide. Designed specifically for audio use after exhaustive listening tests were performed by a well-known high-end audio manufacturer who auditioned ten different prototypes – all of which had a unique blend of materials and manufacturing techniques. The winning design became the PR9372.
These resistors are metal film, a Ni-Chrome thin film construction, completely non-magnetic, offering a high-resolution sound. They have a flat frequency response with incredibly low distortion and thermal EMF. We have selected to stock the 1%, 100ppm tolerance range.
They are reasonably priced, coming in somewhat lower than the Takman metal films.
Ohmite Audio Gold Resistors

1k5 5W for the screen grids on the power tubes. I like the look of these over the Xicon cement types which will be trying as well.
ohmite-audio-gold-350.jpg
Ohmite now offers the Audio Gold Resistor Family, specifically designed for high-end loudspeaker and amplifier applications. These resistors utilize high quality resistance wire wound on a ceramic core, terminated, and finished with their flameproof Centohm® coating.
Ohmite’s Audio Gold resistors have been carefully engineered with non-magnetic materials to eliminate the effects of these stray magnetic fields on circuit performance, thereby resulting in simplified shielding requirements and improved sound quality. Audio Gold resistors are designed for use in cross-over networks and as source, emitter, or cathode resistors in balancing applications for output transducers.
Ohmite Little Demon Carbon Composite Resistors

22k for the bias trimpot/tail. For this position, I also have a TE Connectivity CFR series CF 1W. If the bias circuit really has an impact on tone it should be present with either of these.
ohmite-little-demon-carbon-resistors-350.jpg
Ohmite’s Little Demons are small, reliable carbon composition 0.5 Watt resistor with exceptional strength. They are made tough by a moulding process that combines the terminals, insulation and resistive element into an integrated unit.
Along with their small size, Little Demons perform with low noise, dissipate heat rapidly and offer high-temperature stability.
Colour codes are readable even after prolonged use thanks to a very durable coating that resists abrasions and chipping normally associated with automatic insertion equipment.
Holco Metals Films (Originals)

150k for the slope. Alternatively an H4P or I have some other exotics (Kiwame, PRP)
holco_resistors_350_0.jpg
The Holco H2 1W and Holco H4 0.5W series of resistors that we stock are the original Meggitt Holsworthy, UK made resistors. They give a crisp, full sound, superb. We have limited stocks as the originals are no longer made.
The manufacturing facility utilises closely controlled production processes including the sputter coating of metal alloy films to ceramic substrates, and laser spiralling to achieve close tolerance and high stability resistors. An epoxy coating is applied for environmental and mechanical protection.
Kiwame

270k 2W as balance resistors on the reservoir caps. There's also an option to use Allen Bradley's here for that mixture of CC and CF which I also want to try in the power supply. The PS is being commissioned with Xicon MO but dropping string values are only estimated at the moment and once I have it dialled in I can think about tinkering with the sets of resistors in this section. It would be nice to get some Q-line-esque resistors here I think.
kiwame_350.jpg
These are an excellent match for Hi-End Audio. Kiwame resistors are from Japan and are characterized by lower noise than metal film resistors and a more natural sound. There is a growing enthusiasm for these carbon film resistors because they recapture the vintage tube sound without the drift of carbon comps. They are also very compact given their wattage rating. The resistance material is a carbon film with coated silicon and finished in green.
Since their first introduction to the audio industry, they have managed to gain the reputation and the respect of both manufacturers and worldwide DIY-ers. In fact, several manufacturers openly suggest Kiwame resistors along with the 'usual suspects' (quality capacitors etc.) for the upgrade of their products. Lately, Kiwame resistors found another audio application, that of the step ladder attenuators used as volume potentiometers.
Browsing internet audio forums and DIY discussion groups proves that Kiwame resistors really make a difference! Kiwame resistors are made of carbon film and their case is actually the first one for use in audio applications with superior specifications! Considerably lower thermal noise levels, lower than metal film resistors!
On the other hand, they offer true 0.5% tolerance despite their nominal E24-series 5% label! If you don't believe it a multimeter will certainly convince you. Their sonic character can be briefly described as follows: Effortless reproduction ('non-fatigued) is subjectively perceived as an increase of headroom. Extensive neutrality.
Allen Bradley

270k 2W 5% Alongside the Kiwame an option for the balance resistors in the PS.

22M 0.25W 10% for the PAB relay circuit. No readily available CCs in these values though there are CF and MF from KOA, Vishay, etc
allen_bradley_box_600.jpg
The write-up is rather long on these so here are the main points...
For many many years, these carbon composite resistors from the States have been held in high regard for hi-fi and for guitar amp use. Their natural organic tone is truly sublime. Unfortunately, production stopped in the 1990s and ever since then the stocks have been diminishing fast.
These "hot-moulded carbon" resistors offer the simplest of concepts for a resistor design. They effectively consist of a solid cylindrical carbon resistive element with leads embedded at each end. Making them incredibly rugged and highly reliable, together with their non-magnetic and non-inductive characteristics these little gems are remarkable in performance and sound...
The Hi Fi Collective has many values of these but even their inventory is starting to dwindle. Of note, they offer instructions on reconditioning the CCs
Allen Bradley RESISTORS special treatment method
As stated Allen Bradley resistors are carbon composite, being made of organic material they do have the tendency to absorb water from the atmosphere. This absorption can increase the actual resistance of the component, hence the slightly higher than normal tolerance published on this page. To fix this simply remove the water from the component and seal it. The best method is to place the resistor/s on a baking tray, set your oven to 80 degrees centigrade and leave in the oven for 8 hours. The secret is to remove the moisture slowly if you rush it it will become noisy in the circuit. Once cooked seal the body of the component in Shellack (preferably the flakes) to stop any further water absorption. At the end of this procedure, you will have much lower noise, more closely tolerance resistors. Special thanks to Colin Cornish for this excellent tip.
Which is fine I suppose if you have ten-thousand of them to revive. Otherwise, leaving the oven on for 8 hours - fuggedaboudit :lol:

The Holcos and the Allen Bradleys are pretty much non-starters in this race for utility. Being out-of-production, their only place here is to provide some kind of benchmark from which to judge other worthy (in-production) contenders. The PRPs look interesting though, and the Ohmite, both of which if it wasn't for all the Brexit bullshit and misery, would make the Hi Fi Collective a more frequently visited shop. The Amtrans, also in-production, are just a too expensive for anything other than singular, critical components, but we will see how they sound.

That's it then! Unless you guys come up with some other alternatives that I know I will find it hard to resist, my wallet is shut. :lol:
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Re: New 183 build

Post by bepone »

i like this system! very expensive experiments! this is the same like gastronomy, cooking for special sauce! otherwise they will remain for hi-fi stuff! :mrgreen:

should i mention that i just spent 120Eur on one potentiometer for one hi-fi preamp (japanese TKD)? :| :lol:
Stephen1966
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Re: New 183 build

Post by Stephen1966 »

bepone wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:37 am i like this system! very expensive experiments! this is the same like gastronomy, cooking for special sauce! otherwise they will remain for hi-fi stuff! :mrgreen:

should i mention that i just spent 120Eur on one potentiometer for one hi-fi preamp (japanese TKD)? :| :lol:
HiFi is a different ballgame altogether, where components are being trimmed for clarity and headroom, flat response, low noise and very tight tolerances. I'm pretty sure these aren't qualities we need much in a guitar amp. If we call them "colour" then all the historical evidence suggests that when MrD chose components, he did so with an idea of colour in mind. The HiFi route is monotone and flat as befits a system built to reproduce the natural recording without discoloration. MrD exploited the colour that certain components bring and it seems likely he would have performed many auditions with a great variety of parts before arriving at the one that spoke a certain way. Not all resistors (or pots) are born equal, but some are more equal than others in the Orwellian world of materials science. The great questions are which side of the colour spectrum he was looking to with some of these components. It also seems likely that the first place to start really looking for the answers are in the hot signal paths. But we have to look beyond plates, grids and cathodes.

As for that 120 EUR! Serious HiFi is seriously expensive. It's out of my ballpark :D
Stephen
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Re: New 183 build

Post by Stephen1966 »

Just wondering (this is something I want to use) does anybody have any suggestions for a European supplier of the black gunk on the power resistors shown in this photo?
black gunk.jpg
I've seen lacquers and waxes, I'm just wondering what MrD used, for arc protection.
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Re: New 183 build

Post by ijedouglas »

Stephen1966 wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:34 pm Just wondering (this is something I want to use) does anybody have any suggestions for a European supplier of the black gunk on the power resistors shown in this photo?

black gunk.jpg

I've seen lacquers and waxes, I'm just wondering what MrD used, for arc protection.
I think it's nail varnish :)
Ian
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Re: New 183 build

Post by Stephen1966 »

ijedouglas wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 2:37 pm
Stephen1966 wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:34 pm Just wondering (this is something I want to use) does anybody have any suggestions for a European supplier of the black gunk on the power resistors shown in this photo?

black gunk.jpg

I've seen lacquers and waxes, I'm just wondering what MrD used, for arc protection.
I think it's nail varnish :)

An elegant solution, if so... Shame there are no Goths in my family :lol:
Stephen
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Re: New 183 build

Post by jabguit »

Stephen1966 wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 2:42 pm


An elegant solution, if so... Shame there are no Goths in my family :lol:
Hot Pink could work as well.... :lol:

cheers
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Re: New 183 build

Post by WhopperPlate »

jabguit wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 11:14 am
Stephen1966 wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 2:42 pm


An elegant solution, if so... Shame there are no Goths in my family :lol:
Hot Pink could work as well.... :lol:

cheers
I like hot pink tone better any ways :P
Charlie
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Re: New 183 build

Post by Stephen1966 »

WhopperPlate wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 3:11 pm
jabguit wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 11:14 am
Stephen1966 wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 2:42 pm


An elegant solution, if so... Shame there are no Goths in my family :lol:
Hot Pink could work as well.... :lol:

cheers
I like hot pink tone better any ways :P
Hot Pink! Poor MrD; he will be turning in his grave! I think it's actually a brilliant idea. Lacquer is used in PCB masking and some of the "industrial" solutions are lacquer based. So, why not use nail varnish!? I'll give the hot pink some thought - I have to figure out if my ego is strong enough to use such a girly colour!

Change of subject. Bepone, very kindly, suggested that I get an LCR meter. The model in question is the DER EE DE-5000 from https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394089362806 ... name=11050 which ships from Tokyo. I am giving FIVE Hello Kittys to this seller, because the meter was sitting on my desk only a week after I ordered it.

There are a number of review and teardown videos about this meter on YouTube and one of the first things I did was install proper Kelvin clips. I'm not going to review it except to say that after calibration, it seems to be a high accuracy meter and probably the best you can get before spending four times as much on an Agilent benchtop meter or such.

I have been using it to check my caps and following the datasheets with their published dissipation factor figures, I've been able to establish (a) that my caps are good and (b) that they are all well within the tolerable ranges.

The reason for getting this meter in the first place though was to dive a little deeper on the Tube Town output transformer specs. With bepone's help I found the following...

All of these measurements were done using a 1kHz input signal.
  • (1) Primary inductance, connecting A1 and A2 = 8.352H but the datasheet ran it under power (@240V, 50Hz open circuit) and their figure is => 125H
  • (2) Parasitic capacitance, connecting A1 and 16Ω tap = 1856pF
  • (3) Parasitic capacitance on primary winding, connecting A1 and A2 = 2.44nF
  • Total parasitic capacitance (1856pF + 2440pF) = 4296pF (4.296nF)
  • (4) Parasitic inductance, A1 to secondaries (0, 4, 8, and 16 shorted together) = 8.014mH
I don't have any benchmarks to gauge these figures by, but bepone assures me they are good. If anyone has similar measurements for the type of OT MrD used, it would be great.
Stephen
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Re: New 183 build

Post by talbany »

Stephen1966 wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 12:34 pm Just wondering (this is something I want to use) does anybody have any suggestions for a European supplier of the black gunk on the power resistors shown in this photo?

black gunk.jpg

I've seen lacquers and waxes, I'm just wondering what MrD used, for arc protection.
Not sure what Mr.D used but I used this!. Home Depot carries it :D
LiquidTape_Rev_433x285.jpg
Tony
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Re: New 183 build

Post by WhopperPlate »

Stephen1966 wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 6:53 pm
I have to figure out if my ego is strong enough to use such a girly colour!
I know I quote my dad enough , but growing up we had a pink bike that no neighborhood boys wanted to ride . He would come out in a pink shirt and heckle us : “ what, aren’t you man enough to wear pink?” :wink:
Charlie
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