Tube Curve Tracer design

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Tube Curve Tracer design

Post by pompeiisneaks »

Editing the first post, corrected title, thanks Martin!

Read later posts than this, as it explains the entire idea, and I've pulled a topic hijack into a new thread :D

I don't know that this is what you're mentioning, but some people I've read online love this thing:

http://www.dos4ever.com/uTracer3/uTracer3_pag1.html

But not sure it does what you're talking about, or if it could be modded to do so?

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Re: Matched Tubes?

Post by Phil_S »

It is ironic to use solid state technology to test vacuum tubes! There is something unholy about it.
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Re: Matched Tubes?

Post by R.G. »

Micro tracer - I think that's it. Actually, I had an old Tektronix tube-based scope that would curve trace tubes. It weighed about 200 pounds as I remember.

Curve tracers are hard to use well. You have to do a lot of mental interpolation and curve fitting to do the more useful things right. They're GREAT for finding voltage breakdowns and such. The actual plate or grid curves of a tube are not all that helpful in themselves. You'd be looking for the grid-cathode voltage that gave X plate current and Y screen current. It's simpler for the user, if not the instrument, to be presented a value of Vgs that gives a value of Ip, along with the identifying tube label number. The info is there on the tracer curves, of course, but you have to learn to squint it out.

I like the idea of running a bunch of data points and storing that info in a file. Today, using a megabyte of storage per tube is pretty trivial, and that's probably way more than you really need. I guess I ought to do some boundary calculations for how much data is really needed. These days, you can get a terabyte for $35-$50, so keeping a lot of data is cheaper than a few hours of human time.

After scanning (is there a better word?) a box of 50 6L6s (and labeling each one with a number so you can later tell them apart), you can simply tell your machine, through perhaps a C or Basic program, to find you the best pairs, quads, hexes, and so on, and list them out for you. You could use some advanced stuff like saying that Vgs @ 50ma (or Ip at -35V) is within X%, gm is within Y%, [something else you compute] is withing Z%, and have it spit out the likeliest candidates.

I can't imagine how a tube "matching" service would not do something like that, unless they just never think of it.

The truly bad problem is the spread of characteristics. The things that are good about a tube - emission current per heater voltage, gm, Ip vs Vgs, etc. all have some statistical spread. The spread is almost certainly close to a normal distribution for each run of tubes, and for each manufacturer over many runs. Keeping a lot of data on the tubes you rapidly get to the point where you can tell the machine (through that C or Basic program again) to tell you the actual distribution including things like the standard deviation. That tells you how far apart you can expect the NEXT tube to be from the ones you've already measured, and can be used to tell you what % of tubes will be within X% of each other for matching, and which are simply too widely distributed.

In the case of an old-school kind of shop, someone with an emission tube tester and a bias fixture can test a tube every ten seconds or so as long as the human plugging them in, turning on the tester, then writing down the results, doesn't get tired. I bet that out of a box of tubes, they would decide on a measurement criteria that made 80% or more of them be "matched" close enough, and sell all the outliers if matching was not requested. Human shopkeepers are fairly predictable in some ways. :D

As for solid state devices to test tubes - actually, it's a version of there being justice in the universe, with billions (literally, if you count the CPUs and memory) of tiny silicon devices paying homage to their thermionic ancestors.
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Re: Matched Tubes?

Post by Reeltarded »

Phil_S wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:04 pm It is ironic to use solid state technology to test vacuum tubes! There is something unholy about it.

Neh.. I trust solid state for data more than I trust a tube and a bunch of wires.
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Re: Matched Tubes?

Post by R.G. »

I did a quicky paper design on the tube analyzer thing.

Isolated current reading for the plate and screen grids turn out to be easier with a shunt resistor and an isolation amplifier. Each channel of this requires:
Shunt resistor $0.10
Iso amp $6.00
Isolated PS $3.00
or about $20.00 for reading plate current and screen current accurate to about 12 bits and up to midrange audio frequency response.

Controlling grid bias requires an opamp and some circuitry to allow this to run with a -75V output - something I've designed before, that costs about $4.00 in parts.

Reading plate, screen, and grid voltages with audio bandwidth takes about another $5.00, based on resistive dividers and other small parts.

The uC to make this all walk and talk is about $2.00; the programming is about three days of a skilled coder's time. I'd be able to do it in a couple of weeks. :lol:

So you might be able to hack one of these together for about $100.
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Re: Matched Tubes?

Post by pompeiisneaks »

I'm a coder. Makes me want to try lol. Just gotta find the time and sister cash hehe. The Arduino is a pretty great controller for some of that kind of stuff and I've tomorrow with the ide quite a bit.

Phil

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Re: Matched Tubes?

Post by martin manning »

Check out this long thread documenting my experience with u-Tracer: https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21903
R.G makes it sound easy and cheap... in reality it’s not either.
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Re: Matched Tubes?

Post by Reeltarded »

lol you make it sound expensive and easy..

You both make everything sound easy.

I am going to go have a bias problem and come back with something useful for you to math on. My gift! :)
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Re: Matched Tubes?

Post by martin manning »

Ha ha, bring it! My point there is that a lot of time and effort has gone into getting the uTracer to work well. There’s another product called eTracer that looks good too. I haven’t looked lately but I think it’s more money than a uTracer, but perhaps a little more capable, and faster.
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Re: Matched Tubes?

Post by R.G. »

The electronics concepts are easy. The first build is modestly hard. The software is HARD.

I haven't looked at the circuits for the etracer (?) or the other (u-tracer) so I don't know which approach they took.

If it were me producing one of these, I'd cheat. I would build the hardware and do just enough programming to gather spreadsheets of data, then make the spreadsheets do the hard thing of showing curves and such.

User interface programming is HARD.
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Re: Matched Tubes?

Post by pompeiisneaks »

I think for me, the hardest part of UI design nowadays is the graphical representation of things. The actual UI part is pretty easy now in JAVA with SWING and some of the other simplified UI tools. I've never spent enough time to crack the trick to doing things like drawing graphs of output data, but it's usually that part that becomes really hard. At least for me :D

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Re: Matched Tubes?

Post by ChopSauce »

There has been several attempts at developping scientific data visualisation libraries, but the efforts were scattered, and the ever evolving software environment didn't helped much.

Maybe Python still is the most common "environment" for any such task?
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Re: Matched Tubes?

Post by martin manning »

eTracer’s software is written in Python.
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Re: Matched Tubes?

Post by pompeiisneaks »

I can write in python, perl, php, java, ruby, javascript and could even do some c if needed :D

The UI stuff is much easier in Java due to it's Swing stuff etc. but if it was going to be more 'web' based the others work very well. There are some python based UI's you can use I think, though, that aren't nightmarishly hard, but I've never used them. I think for a tracer app, webapp isn't really an option, but I may not be thinking of the exact use case correctly.

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Re: Matched Tubes?

Post by R.G. »

Miscellaneous thoughts;

Although an Arduino could do the job well enough, a $17 Raspberry Pi Zero W would be a good choice, hosting all of the UI natively (in Python...) and communicating through WiFi with a PC by VNC. Or, if you want to make a standalone machine instead of co-opting a used and possibly free laptop or older desktop machine, you can hook a display, keyboard, and mouse directly to the Pi.

Having looked at the situation a bit, I think that instead of using Hall effect current monitors, I'd use small shunt resistors floating in series with the plate, screen, and grid, and isolating differential amplifiers to get the currents out to A-D converters.

There are convenient 4 channel, 16 bit A-D converter modules available for $2.00 each on ebay, which offer two differential channels of A-D (and four single ended channels) that would be about ideal for converting the differential output of an isolating diffamp. They're only good up to 860 samples per second, so the speed of the measured signal would need to be limited to less than 400Hz. That may be OK for a tube characterizer, and is cheap for proof of concept. A second module gives you four single ended 16 bit channels, and could be used for measuring Vgrid, Vscreen, and Vplate, as well as a Voutput if you used appropriate resistor-capacitor scaling on the voltages.

So the front end measurement system looks like

Iplate: Sense resistor => Si8190 isolating diffamp => 2x channels of A-D#1 => host via i2C
Iscreen: Sense resistor => Si8190 isolating diffamp => 2x channels of A-D#1 => host via i2C
Vgrid: Resistor network divider => inverting opamp => 1x channel of A-D#2
Vplate: Resistor network divider => inverting opamp => 1x channel of A-D#2
Vscreen: Resistor network divider => inverting opamp => 1x channel of A-D#2
Voutput: Resistor network divider => inverting opamp => 1x channel of A-D#2

Reading all the outputs amounts to reading the channels via i2C on the two A-D's.

After that, it's ASMOP (A Simple Matter Of Programming). :lol:

Hmmmm... I don't know why this didn't strike me before - you could build a sampling probe head into an octal-socket standoff so you could do the actual sampling for a tube inside a functioning amp. The grid supply would be carried along on the measurement system, so you could insert the sampling head. Hmmm... no, wait - you build two sampling heads, so you can use it in a push pull amplifier and actually test the output stage separately from the rest of the amp. That saves you from having to build the power supply, OT and other appurtenances needed that are not the measurement system. Of course, it still works with a test bed separate from an amp, too.

Dang. More design to do. :D
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