I've been reading back and forth here, trying to find proper specs for the transformers used in the various Wreck versions. OT seems to be fairly consistent at 6.6/5.5 k, but PT range from 234V to 340VAC in various schematics for 4 x EL84 in PPP.....
My main reasons for not just ordering the Tonesluts, are shipping from US to Europe, which have gone through the roof the last years, so I'm trying to source transformers locally, or in Europe at least. Of course, over here we also need 230V/50Hz, too......
I think a proper set of specs will also make a good reference to all those that are tempting their luck on Ebay, too....
So- optimum OT and PT specs ( with current capacity) for the "standard" Rocket, Liverpool and Express versions......please ???
Trainwreck transformers specs
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skyboltone
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Re: Trainwreck transformers specs
This is a great question. The toneslut transformers are 260 or 300 center tapped. But the DC voltages called out on the schematics I've seen of the Liverpool really require a 235-0-235 secondary voltage. That's what I use on my EL-84 and 7189 builds. The ones I have made by Heyboer are unfortunatly only 120VAC primary so I can't help you.Aurora wrote:I've been reading back and forth here, trying to find proper specs for the transformers used in the various Wreck versions. OT seems to be fairly consistent at 6.6/5.5 k, but PT range from 234V to 340VAC in various schematics for 4 x EL84 in PPP.....
My main reasons for not just ordering the Tonesluts, are shipping from US to Europe, which have gone through the roof the last years, so I'm trying to source transformers locally, or in Europe at least. Of course, over here we also need 230V/50Hz, too......
I think a proper set of specs will also make a good reference to all those that are tempting their luck on Ebay, too....
So- optimum OT and PT specs ( with current capacity) for the "standard" Rocket, Liverpool and Express versions......please ???
Dan
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Re: Trainwreck transformers specs
These discrepancies are exactly the reason for my questions...
One of the european suppliers have a 250V/250mA PT, and another one 2x280V 100 mA each, and a 6.6k OT rated at 35W down to 20Hz. These should be sufficient for a Rocket or a Liverpool, but although I was taught tube theory in the early 70s, I'm a bit "rusty" to put it mildly......
One of the european suppliers have a 250V/250mA PT, and another one 2x280V 100 mA each, and a 6.6k OT rated at 35W down to 20Hz. These should be sufficient for a Rocket or a Liverpool, but although I was taught tube theory in the early 70s, I'm a bit "rusty" to put it mildly......
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funkmeblue
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Re: Trainwreck transformers specs
Ken said he built the rocket with a transformer that had 2 taps, one supplied the tubes with 315 the other 370 volts. "if I use the higher setting, I get more volume, more headroom, and a tighter bottom, but the amp is less dynamic and gives weaker harmonics."
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skyboltone
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Re: Trainwreck transformers specs
For a straigt liverpool build that 315 is the target. With solid state rectification and a capacitor input filter and standard bias that really needs somewhere between 230 and 235 center tapped. For a 4 tube liverpool the 250MA will be enough. I use 200MA for my two tube builds but only because the transformers are the same size and cost as a 150MA from Heyboer. As soon as I can get a test chassis worked up (so I can quickly plug in different Ot) I intend to test about 4 different OT for the 18 watt liverpool. I've got about 3 different Hammond Organ transformers and a Leslie speaker amp transformer. I think Dartanion has at least a couple to listen to. My intention is to find the best one and then clone 10 of them to get the price break. So I don't know if you are set on a 40 watt Liverpool or not, but the two holers are easily loud enough for most saloon gigs. Tonally is hard to say. Dartanion has build both two and four holers and he says there is a difference, all things being equal. I suspect it would be similar to the difference between say an AC-15 and an AC30. With any kind of luck I should have some OT available in a month. What's the VAT on used electronic parts?funkmeblue wrote:Ken said he built the rocket with a transformer that had 2 taps, one supplied the tubes with 315 the other 370 volts. "if I use the higher setting, I get more volume, more headroom, and a tighter bottom, but the amp is less dynamic and gives weaker harmonics."
The Last of the World's Great Human Beings
Seek immediate medical attention if you suddenly go either deaf or blind.
If you put the Federal Government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in five years time there would be a shortage of sand.
Seek immediate medical attention if you suddenly go either deaf or blind.
If you put the Federal Government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in five years time there would be a shortage of sand.
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funkmeblue
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Re: Trainwreck transformers specs
I'm going to try triode electronics dynaco copy 17.5 watts 8k to 4 and 8 ohm. It has ultra linear taps to try out
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skyboltone
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Re: Trainwreck transformers specs
The last one I built had a 7200 to 8. A bit darker than the 10.5 but not much. Hardly noticeable. I've heard good things about that transformer.funkmeblue wrote:I'm going to try triode electronics dynaco copy 17.5 watts 8k to 4 and 8 ohm. It has ultra linear taps to try out
The Last of the World's Great Human Beings
Seek immediate medical attention if you suddenly go either deaf or blind.
If you put the Federal Government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in five years time there would be a shortage of sand.
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funkmeblue
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Re: Trainwreck transformers specs
I'll let you know. I thought about a liverpool pre into a rocket phase inverter and two tube output. Maybe even an ez81 rectafier and an ultralinear/pentode switch
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skyboltone
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Re: Trainwreck transformers specs
Dartanion does a deal with two EL-84, and Ez-81 (6CA4) and a variable single ended bleed pot. Pretty spectacular amp. I don't recall his PI setup but I know there is another mod to the scheme that I'll let him tell you about if he's willing.funkmeblue wrote:I'll let you know. I thought about a liverpool pre into a rocket phase inverter and two tube output. Maybe even an ez81 rectafier and an ultralinear/pentode switch
The Last of the World's Great Human Beings
Seek immediate medical attention if you suddenly go either deaf or blind.
If you put the Federal Government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in five years time there would be a shortage of sand.
Seek immediate medical attention if you suddenly go either deaf or blind.
If you put the Federal Government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in five years time there would be a shortage of sand.
Re: Trainwreck transformers specs
I used the SE/PP pot from Mark Durham's Vajra amp. It's pretty simple to implement and is a cool mod. The whole amp is pretty special too. It's a shame that Mark isn't around anymore to share his infinite wisdom. He was killed in a car accident a couple of years while on vacation in Hawai'i.
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kalinowski
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Re: Trainwreck transformers specs
I just wondered if specs of OT are secret? The same thing here, I'm from europe and shipping + tax kills me every time I order something from US. If I had dimensions of the core and drawing/ description of interleavings I could try to make it on my own. I have proper tools at my university but had no motivation towards learning about winding transformers before.
Re: Trainwreck transformers specs
I don't think they're secret, just that the 'original-spec' ones are so good they are well worth the effort of buying.
And, great as the Heyboer one is, I've swapped the one in my Express build for a Pacific and it's even better.
The Heyboer is happily remaining in my Liverpool though as it sounds too good to mess with.
And, great as the Heyboer one is, I've swapped the one in my Express build for a Pacific and it's even better.
The Heyboer is happily remaining in my Liverpool though as it sounds too good to mess with.
Re: Trainwreck transformers specs
Hi,
So which transfomer are you asking about?
You first determine what voltage you'd like at the primary and how much that may deteriorate, the you'd ask what frequency spectrum you'd like to push through the OT.
Indeed Ken did tell that the transformers noone will ever get hehe;)
jaja, it's not like you may not figure that out if you have too;).
However you could take any Marshall 1987 and turn that into what?
To fully understand it's a bit more tha transformers, but let's say you'd need power first..........consider the density of power............
Easy, you woulkd for any amplifier need to know what current can be supplied at maximum, then you'd consider heat and yes for the output transformer you'd consider the bandwidth that is to be reproduced........
but then you'd consider distortion versus output and you'd weigh optimum load by distortion rather than maximum output- something you could find in graphs on transformers, right maybe not these days but still thsi would be included in the tube manuals.
Right so you are making a nonlinear amplifier and then rules for linear amplifiers do no longer apply.
Right anyway have fun
BJ
So which transfomer are you asking about?
You first determine what voltage you'd like at the primary and how much that may deteriorate, the you'd ask what frequency spectrum you'd like to push through the OT.
Indeed Ken did tell that the transformers noone will ever get hehe;)
jaja, it's not like you may not figure that out if you have too;).
However you could take any Marshall 1987 and turn that into what?
To fully understand it's a bit more tha transformers, but let's say you'd need power first..........consider the density of power............
Easy, you woulkd for any amplifier need to know what current can be supplied at maximum, then you'd consider heat and yes for the output transformer you'd consider the bandwidth that is to be reproduced........
but then you'd consider distortion versus output and you'd weigh optimum load by distortion rather than maximum output- something you could find in graphs on transformers, right maybe not these days but still thsi would be included in the tube manuals.
Right so you are making a nonlinear amplifier and then rules for linear amplifiers do no longer apply.
Right anyway have fun
BJ
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kalinowski
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Re: Trainwreck transformers specs
I know how to design a output transformer. Question is how Ken did it. Cause OT is gonna have enormous impact on sound I'd like to reproduce Ken's OT if I want to make a clone.
Of course I can buy toneslut transformers but I wanted to take DIY one step futher as it would go together with my study.
m.
Of course I can buy toneslut transformers but I wanted to take DIY one step futher as it would go together with my study.
m.
Re: Trainwreck transformers specs
Hi,
Well, I think I just did tell.
But no I can't tell you how Ken did, only how you'd go about it if you had the same education.
If it's an OT then consider the bandwidth you'd like to push through it and take a look at the transient response- you'd likely not like the transformer to duck when exposed to square. You would see also on OT's that you can put the loading so that it gives maximum power, but that then odd overtones and specifically the 7th would be more dominant,while that's at the peak of what the transfomer can do but that if you choose a lower workingpoint-i.e. impedance, just below the maximum power you'd get a more even overtone response.
You'd have to specify the voltages and the output device to make this though.
This is evident if you know how to design your transformers
Formulas for this are found in textbooks but you'd need to go back to the early 70's to find this.
The point being that you can tune as long as you know.
There is no magic just science.
Have fun
BJ
Well, I think I just did tell.
But no I can't tell you how Ken did, only how you'd go about it if you had the same education.
If it's an OT then consider the bandwidth you'd like to push through it and take a look at the transient response- you'd likely not like the transformer to duck when exposed to square. You would see also on OT's that you can put the loading so that it gives maximum power, but that then odd overtones and specifically the 7th would be more dominant,while that's at the peak of what the transfomer can do but that if you choose a lower workingpoint-i.e. impedance, just below the maximum power you'd get a more even overtone response.
You'd have to specify the voltages and the output device to make this though.
This is evident if you know how to design your transformers
Formulas for this are found in textbooks but you'd need to go back to the early 70's to find this.
The point being that you can tune as long as you know.
There is no magic just science.
Have fun
BJ